「今天的小红书已经证明了，好的社区能带来好的商业。」
12 月 17 日极客公园创新大会 2024 上，小红书 COO 柯南和极客公园创始人&总裁张鹏聊了聊，一起站在此刻，看小红书这个当今互联网存量时代「增速奇观」的「商业价值」，呈现了小红书这些年关于社区、商业和用户 的思考脉络。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
在这次主题为「用户、系统、连接，小红书的『商业价值』是什么？」的对谈中，柯南回答了外界对小红书的诸多好奇——小红书现在怎么看社区和商业的关系？小红书在为平台上的商业角色提供何样的土壤，在做什么样的商业系统？小红书搜索的价值有多大？用户的力量如何在今天影响商业，与平台的「新关系」是怎样的？
今年是小红书成立的第十周年，社区持续长大，商业就在其中自然而然的生长。这几年，小红书归拢起社区中自然萌发生长出来的商业价值，开始构建商业体系。一方面，被用户赋名的「种草」价值开始量化，从「玄学」到「科学」，给品牌更确定性的结果；另一方面，「种草」之后的「拔草」自然生长，电商被更原生地安放在社区之中——商品笔记、直播带货…此外，被外界广泛讨论的搜索也在迅速生长，成为新用户打开小红书社区的一扇门。
小红书正在观察，并开始看到并捕捉这些商业价值。从负责小红书社区转为负责小红书电商及商业化产品，柯南说是在对用户对社区理解之上，有了更丰富和完整的视角补充——对商业的认知和理解。如何能够持续提供用户价值的同时也能帮助商业角色成长。
小红书也正在行动，并开始构建适合小红书的原生商业系统。柯南说，越来越多商家品牌正在从长期经营的视角去思考，去和用户建立连接，小红书正在做的就是面向他们的长期经营，去构建原生商业系统，建设商业体系。
更完善的商业体系反过来增强了小红书社区内个体的价值。「买手」真正成了一份新职业；品牌主理人们自己来小红书做内容、做经营，自己成为自己品牌、产品的代言人；品牌商家从被看到、被喜欢到能获得高效转化。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
正如柯南所说，「社区和商业不是对立的，也不矛盾。小红书的社区有商业，而且有非常繁荣，有活力的商业生态。」「顺应用户需求和链路，顺应生态生长的节奏与规律，构建小红书原生的商业系统，去帮助商业角色创造价值。这也是商业更好融入社区的唯一路径。」
以下是在小红书 COO 柯南对谈极客公园创始人张鹏实录，由极客公园整理。
一、我们一定程度上冲破了外界对社区的刻板印象
Q：2023 是小红书成立十周年，你们怎么庆祝的？
柯南：8 月 2 号是小红书注册的日子，所以我们一直把 8 月 2 号叫做小红书日。每年的 8 月 2 号，小红书的员工可以不用上班，带薪出去玩。而且我们会为员工们设计各种各样的活动，比如说今年有浆板、皮划艇、攀岩还有冥想颂钵、画画，有动的有静的。员工可以根据自己的兴趣爱好去选择各种各样的活动区参与。比如说我今年就去学了一个咖啡拉花，还去了击剑。
因为今年是十周年比较特殊，所以今年 8 月 2 号我们在上海举办了一周多的「马路生活节」，当晚，还为员工组织了一场演唱会，星矢也在会上分享了一下十年来的感悟以及展望未来我们的使命和愿景。
在这之前，7 月公司的核心同学就一起去了桐庐，先聚在一起去讨论面向未来我们的使命和愿景这些话题。其实五周年，我们在桐庐同样的地方，也有过类似的讨论。公司特意选了同一间民宿，我甚至住同一间房间。
Q：很讲究，有点看过去五年的自己的感觉？
柯南：对，同一个地方，能感受到五年前和五年后挺大的变化。我翻出了五年前在桐庐的笔记，发现我们花了半天的时间讨论「在小红书是分享重要还是发现重要？」。
Q：你当时觉得哪个重要？
柯南：现在想来，这个问题也不是那么重要。后来回去的路上，因为桐庐（回上海）差不多小巴要三四个小时，所以在小巴上面我们还讨论了小红书要不要做电商的话题。五年前，我的笔记里，我当时非常坚定地表态我们不要做电商，那时是站在社区的角度。但你看，去年我开始负责电商业务了。（笑）
Q：这个变化挺感慨的。
柯南：所以现在回过来想的话其实还是挺有意思的，挺青涩的吧感觉。
Q：不后悔？
柯南：不后悔。我觉得很多问题的变化是源于自己认知的变化、视野的打开。但主要还是今天的小红书已经和五年前变的非常不一样了。
Q：小红书的用户数量还在持续增长，但是不是对社区来说，赚钱就是挺令人头疼的？
柯南：我从 2015 年开始做社区，一直以来人们对社区都有两个最大的质疑，一个是社区长不大，第二是社区很难赚钱。
Q：他们也这么说极客公园。
柯南：我感觉极客公园也是一个社区。
Q：我们比你们还小很多。
柯南：小有小的美。社区长不大的问题，我们已经通过社区在这个阶段不断破圈以及它的用户规模不断扩大，某种程度上消除了这个问题，因为社区是可以长大的。过去十年大家看小红书也是正在经历这个过程，而且社区可以服务更广大的用户，我们可以融合更多元的圈层。当你进入的时候你感觉到它已经不是一个大社区，它是非常多小的社群、小的圈层，但是它能够被我们非常好的融合在一起，有机结合在一起。虽然可能很多用户今天不一定一下子进入到社区去参与发笔记、互动、评论，但是他们都能够享受到小红书这个社区给他们带来的价值，所以社区是可以长大的。
回到社区能不能赚钱这件事情，今天的小红书我们也看到好的社区也长出了好的商业。而且我一直觉得社区和商业不是对立的，也不矛盾。我们可以一下就看到小红书的社区有商业，而且有非常繁荣，有活力的商业生态。我去年开始负责社区业务转向电商和商业产品时，我发现小红书的社区已经有了繁荣的商业生态，而且有非常多的品牌、商家，甚至是个体，已经依托在这个生态之上，获得不少商业红利，也赚到了钱。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
在各个平台上，小红书的创作者变现能力是最强的。有500粉丝就可以接商单，有1000粉丝就可以开直播做买手。我相信对于有优质内容创作能力，也有商业 sense 的人来说，这是非常有吸引力的平台。
这些都验证了，第一我们的社区里面有商业生态，而且这个生态已经养出非常多的商家也好，个体也好，大家也在这儿获得了收益，大家也在这生存下来了，只不过大家担心的是你们的商业增长怎么样。
二、持续捕捉的商业需求都来自社区里的商业生态，持续去变革、去升级、去打破
Q：社区的商业运营，是要用你所热爱的东西来解决他人的问题。我做杂志主编的时候，文章被大家喜欢就非常开心。但我需要赚钱来维持编辑部的运营，在经营方面就曾经遇到一些挑战，我不知道你是否有类似的感受？
柯南：有顺利也有挑战。顺利的地方在于，我个人不觉得视角转变了。我是在原生的对用户和社区的理解基础上，兼容补充商业运营的理解。这其实和做社区一脉相承，比如我们现在还挂在墙上的公司文化第一条叫做「走进用户」。
我们的团队每年都会前往不同的城市，走进不同的用户群体。我们是真正尝试走进用户的生活状态，身体力行，真正去看见、去听见、去感知。通过亲身体验，我们能更加深入地理解用户，从而获得许多新的发现。这些发现有时候会让我们啪啪打脸，有时候是惊醒。
回到商业，怎么理解商业的客户，商家的需求，走进商家和走进客户也是非常重要的一个方法我们的商家他们在面对什么样的变化，他们在面对什么样的挑战，他们对我们有什么样的诉求，我们能做什么？这些在逐渐去理解和逐渐看见之后，对于我自己来说也是一种，对我认知社区的世界观更加完整的补充和建立。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
我意识到，小红书的社区不仅仅是用户的平台，上面还有许多不同的商家、商品、品牌，以及依附在上面的个体，不管在这里做生意的，找用户互动的，为用户提供各种各样服务的，不管在公域场还是私域场都是社区的一部分，对于我来说也是看见更广阔社区的一个过程。这个兼容之下有了更全局的理解和认知之后，它更多的是帮助我去思考如何在持续提供用户价值的同时也帮助这些商业价值和商业体。
但核心挑战仍然很大。小红书社区还在成长阶段，还没有到成熟期，比如我们的产品容器和框架仍在持续迭代，，还没有到一个稳定期，就好像每年我们都会发现一个关键的产品容器亟待升级，比如（之前的）视频、直播。
因为社区在成长，它养出的商业生态也在不断的变化，因为这里面有非常多新出现的一些商机，甚至新出现的一些商业行为。两个纬度其实它们都在持续的变化和迭代的过程当中，它对于我们在这个过程当中，如何能够更好地去构建和迭代我们的商业产品，把哪一些商业需求和商业价值真正地产品化，让更多的商业体获益。这对我们来说其实是一个挑战。因为我们持续在捕捉的商业需求都来自社区里的商业生态，然后我们也需要去思考怎么能够让这些真正的商业需求在社区里面更原生地融入进去。
Q：原生？
柯南：它要原生但是它同时也需要能够去承载这些商业价值被放大。我觉得有趣的是，很多时候这些商业视角的补充，就反而倒逼我们去看我们的产品容器该如何突破，我们该挖掘什么样的行业，所以这个过程也是一个持续地去变革、去升级、去打破的过程。所以它很有趣，它也充满着挑战，对能力的挑战、对认知的挑战。
Q：找到值得解决的问题，并让产品与解决问题的能力对齐，是相当复杂的事情。在过去几年小红书发现应该更早解决哪些问题？或者之前做错了哪些事情？因为这代表着成长。
柯南：成长常常源自常识性认知的颠覆。很多人认为 2020 年是小红书的重要成长拐点，用户感知小红书的内容生态，特别是视频内容生态，在 2020 年之后变得更加丰富。实际上在 17、18 年，整个内容生态，包括互联网产品形态，都在向视频化升级。
那时候觉得做视频我们把它当成一个产品功能区做，提供发布入口，在原来产品的框架之上能够提供用户可以看视频的一些功能，但是可能我觉得相对来说更加以一种我们还是图文为主、视频是一个附加产品功能，所以大家还是用一种相对来说线性优化的方式。
当时我们还在 UGC 图文生态里面去做沉浸式的想象，一直到 2020 年的时候其实这个认知持续的被用户打破、被我们周围的市场打破。不断地有人跟你说视频的价值真的，不断地刷新我们对于未来的认知。2020 年我们觉得真的要好好做视频了。
我们就拉了一个产品、算法、技术还有运营相对闭环的团队，用一种 All in 视频的方式去做。今天回过头来看的话，确实给我们的视频内容生态带来了极大变化。而且这也对于我们社区组织变革、战斗力是一次大的升级。
Q：我现在更关心搜索，越来越多的人开始使用小红书当做搜索引擎，你觉得小红书搜索现在做得怎么样？未来会怎么样？
柯南：你的问题让我感觉有点 DÉJÀ VU（似曾相识）。今年我持续被告诉的就是小红书的搜索价值，因为今年感受到，越来越多的新用户接触到小红书都是因为搜索，而且就是搜索因为它的有用性，它的工具属性，所以它的普适性。其实就像给很多的，不一定是原生的小红书社区用户的这一批新用户，打开了小红书社区一扇门。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
到今天我们有将近 70% 的月活用户都会搜索，而且三分之一的月活用户打开小红书第一步都是直奔搜索。我就发现用户搜索的场景也变得越来越丰富，比如说最近感冒，有感冒了咳嗽怎么办的，比如下雪航班延误怎么办，包括最近丹东草莓什么时候上市这些问题都来了。这次参加极客公园，前两天来北京又遇见北京大雪，我就会在小红书上搜北京大雪坐飞机还是坐高铁。我一看周末零下 15 度，对于我这个南方人就吓到了，我就搜零下 15 度穿什么。
我们发现一些变化，今天小红书搜索的覆盖面已经非常非常广了，而且现在的用户和当年用户用小红书搜索的方式也不一样。以前搜索词很短，通过搜索来挑选内容。但今天有非常多带着问题来的表达出现了，很多用户在把小红书当作搜索引擎了。我还在一篇笔记上看到用户说小红书有点像你带着 Prompt 去问 ChatGPT 的感觉。
Q：只不过背后不是AI，是真人。
柯南：对，是帮助你解决更复杂需求的人。今天用户的需求越来越复杂，它不是简单的答案，甚至不是一个高度权威答案能够回答的。现在如果在小红书搜「极客公园」，一般搜索结果会告诉你极客公园哪年成立，创始人是谁，张鹏的背景。但在小红书上可能就会有咱们现在聊天的实时分享。
刚才咱们聊了商业，搜索也让我们看见了极大可以做功的商业空间。因为用户搜索的场景很广，背后连接的行业也越来越丰富，比如可以连接更多男性用户的古董车、跑鞋、文玩，还有民生向的，比如教育、考公、考研。全局视角下，我们发现小红书的搜索已经开始有独立的用户价值，也可能会有独立的商业价值。
Q：往往一个没有标准答案的答案在生活里面可能是更好的答案，其中可能蕴含着更多的价值。如果我们把小红书视为新一代的搜索引擎，「new generation」的搜索引擎，未来有什么值得期待的吗？它会如何发展？
柯南：留给我们在搜索上做功的，如何用 AI 更好的驱动搜索非常重要，但同时我们也看见很多更好地去设计它商业的可能性。
刚刚说到用户需求在变化，不管是简单需求还是复杂需求，以及今年用户使用小红书的场景覆盖如此之多元，背后如何连接更丰富的行业，以及如何深挖一个又一个行业在这里，不管向用户提供更好的内容，还是更好的服务，我觉得这些对我们来说都有极大的想象空间。它美妙的地方是因为搜索带出了非常多的商业需求，也带出很多商业价值。它已经发生了，它考验我们的就是怎么把这个商业产品的链路搭建起来。
在我们考虑社区如何商业化的时候，其实我觉得这个过程对于我们来说它逻辑非常简单。小红书社区里面有商业，而且这个商业催生出了商业生态，商业生态里面有非常多已经出现的需求，那我们作为产品去基于需求提供解决方案，这个逻辑非常简单。关键是在这个过程当中我们会发现社区里面滋养出的商业生态和商机。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
三、小红书的商业系统，源自社区原生的商业需求
Q：小红书的商业模式，不仅是作为前端的搜索引擎，人们更好奇完整的商业模式。这套系统是怎么构建的？
柯南：分享我们今年做了什么，这可能是一个相对来说比较清晰的方式。
今年年初我们在商业化侧聚焦在「种草」的商业价值，因为 2019 年小红书刚开始做商业化时，我们发现当时社区生态里面出现了一种，即便是现在也可被称为「new generation」的营销方式，它不是用大量曝光来做触达的品牌广告，而是一波相对来说比较新的品牌和商家，他们意识到要用好的内容触达用户、影响用户。而且这些内容需要更真实，这种真实的来自于真正用过的人。这个过程中，各种各样的叫法在市场上飞来飞去，但是最终市场给了它一个名字叫「种草」。
今天我们听到很多的种草价值都源自于这些 new generation 营销。当社区的生态里催生出新的营销方式，对于小红书团队来说，需要做的就是顺着这个趋势，思考如何把种草产品化，让商家和品牌更好的利用这个产品，提高「种草」效率。这才有了后来大家听到的「蒲公英平台」、「小红书博主」这样新的职业和身份。在之前没有这个概念，只有网红的概念和达人的概念。
今年我们花很多时间在做的，第一是如何让种草更好的量化。人们之前老说种草是「玄学」，我们就会思考如何让它尽可能的科学化，更好的被量化，这样它才能被更多的商家和品牌使用。
同时，今年我们发现真正开始种草的行业也变得越来越多，不仅消费品可以种草，今年线下服务业复苏，教育、旅游，甚至家政，还有游戏也开始在小红书种草。从「种草就来小红书」，变成「万物皆可种草」。
很多行业进入小红书，我们要做的就是如何帮助更多的行业提高种草能力。因为不一样的行业，大家种草的是不一样的东西，不仅仅是大单品，还有服务、体验，甚至是虚拟内容和 IP。我们沿着社区原生生成的这些商业需求，把它产品化、规模化，让更多的商家和商业体能够使用。
Q：感觉最早我们想到的是营销、获客、流量这些东西，但你们要做的是帮大家更接近「经营」的状态？
柯南：对，今年我们听见很多声音，是说如何能更长期的经营，能跟消费者建立连接、直接听见消费者的声音，帮助他们去了解所谓的人群资产背后到底意味什么。这意味大家从大规模的触达，开始思考如何更稳定地建立自己的用户资产，来达到是更好的转化、更好的沉淀用户的目标。
用户价值这个词，之前互联网公司说的比较多。今天我看到，越来越多的商家也在以长期经营的视角，来影响和沉淀客户。这个态度确实是从营销、销售或者流量转化，转向了长期经营。
对我们来说，要做的就是帮助大家更好地在小红书长期经营，以此为目标去构建我们自己的原生的商业系统。
Q：如果极客公园想在小红书上也建个品牌，卖一点东西，比如极客文化产品，我该怎么经营？
柯南：我会问你的两个问题，第一你的产品定位是什么？你的目标客群、客单价、你卖啥、你的风格是什么？ 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q：我接不住了。
柯南：还没到第二个问题。
Q：还是应该先把这个东西想清楚再去跟你探讨。
柯南：极客还是非常工程师风格，底层简单、理性。最近其实在小红书上其实也挺火大家可以搜一下，叫程序员穿搭。
Q：已经不是格子衫了？
柯南：不是格子衫，格子衫已经是古早时代的风格，两年前有一段时间野餐很火，有人说全世界的程序员格子衫都被用作野餐垫了。现在小红书上已经有一些「new generation」的程序员，有非常多的风格改造。最近有一个穿搭的风格叫「Clean Fit」极简，我觉得也挺适合你们极客的，简洁。
Q：我是不是可以找人帮我种草，帮我做买手。
柯南：我觉得你自己就可以做极客公园的主理人。其实很多内容创作者转型，自己做品牌塑造、传递自己的产品文化和品牌理念，主理人就是个不错的角色。
小红书上有个梗，说当年叫「个体户」，今天都叫「主理人」。
有商家总结在小红书经营的三部曲，第一步就是开账号、跟用户互动，通过内容去「圈」不一样的用户，然后感受一下这个社区哪些是你的目标用户。
第二步是主理人出来去宣传自己、介绍自己的产品理念和品牌文化，或者合作买手。
第三步，当有了一定的客群，他们稳定认知了后，你就会去思考如何稳定经营，这个就是我刚才想问你的第二个问题——除了产品定位，你的经营目的是什么？
Q：你前面这段话，让我发现小红书里面有很多商业的「原生」的人在里面，它是不是一种新的生产关系？到底怎么理解这件事？
柯南：我和你分享一些小红书里的现象。
第一个是，小红书的商业系统里，出现了新职业。
比如我们开始做直播电商就出现一批新的买手，不同于当年小红书第一代博主，这些买手可能需要更丰富、更专业的能力——直播也需要选品，不仅仅是分享自己的使用体验，所以他们提供的价值可能就是，在种草之上，也能提供拔草的价值。不一样的阶段，我们能看见不一样的新职业。
包括刚才说到的主理人，主理人也是一种新的个体户，他们都是原来社区里面的用户和个体。我觉得在今天这个环境下，小红书给了非常多的个体非常好的机会，让他们充分发挥个体的力量。只要他们有内容创作的专长，愿意努力分享。所以我们说人人都可以成为买手，并不需要是明星。
第二，小红书商业系统中，也催生出了一些非常细分的行业，来满足细分的用户需求，我觉得可以叫做新行业。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
举个例子，前段时间小红书有一家店，卖的是定制宠物的毛毡。用户可以发自己宠物的照片或者视频给店主，他会帮助你定制非常可爱的毛毡，上面是你宠物的形象。下面的评论都说在排队，订单已经排到几个月之后。
这样细分的行业之前很难想象，但随着养宠物的同学增多，就催生了这样的细分行业。小红书里涌现出太多这样新的行业。而新的商机，就存在于这些细分行业里，是在这个系统中被催生出来的。
第三个是，你提到生产关系，或者说新的关系。确实很多商家和品牌，都会重新思考和用户的关系。我非常同意你说的，现在用户不是「被动消费者」，买完就走了，商家/品牌希望能跟用户建立不一样的、更加深度的关系。但这个关系是什么，我觉得它在不断的被重新定义，或者说它有更丰富的定义。
例如，在小红书的搜索词里，你能看到各种各样的需求。大家听过延安苹果吗？听过延安市果业中心吗？
Q：没有。
柯南：延安市果业中心今年有差不多 400 万吨的苹果销售。但是问题是它在网上的知名度非常低，尤其在年轻人之中。
所以他就发了这篇非常朴素的笔记，向小红书的用户求助说应该怎么卖，还比较有网感的说我们会「听劝」，「听劝」这个词最近在小红书非常火。
这篇笔记下面大概有五六百个评论，很多用户的都在帮助他做营销、策划、销售，如何更年轻化。延安市果业中心就把用户给的很多建议、宣传语印在了它的包装箱上，在小红书上卖，他们还会给用户发感谢信。你会发现这是一个让更多的用户共同参与，来帮助你、建立品牌认知的过程。
我印象比较深的是盒子上面印了一句「我们不是网红水果，因为我们在没网的时候就已经很红了」。
Q：都是用户策划的？
柯南：对，用的就是小红书用户给的策划，听上去是一家非常自信的苹果公司。我感觉新的职业、新的行业，还有这种用户和商家之间开始建立一种新的关系，都是在社区这个相对来说非常原生的商业系统当中才能催生出来的。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
四、新物种没有绝对的参照系，快与慢很难说
Q：刚刚我们一路聊下来提到了new generation的个体户、主理人，new generation的搜索，还有new generation的商业系统。当你构建新的东西的时候是需要一个过程的，过去小红书也被人说是慢公司，所以我想问一下。说你们是慢公司，会觉得被冒犯吗？
柯南：不会觉得冒犯，因为我们是挺慢的。
Q：慢是问题吗？慢需要变成快吗？
柯南：我觉得有时候慢是问题，例如全世界都知道的常识性认知、但你还缺乏的时候，真的是问题。但如果是 new generation 的话，某些时候节奏的快与慢没有绝对的参照系，20 年之后回过头看现在的阶段，你说我们的节奏是快了，还是慢了，挺难说的。
对于小红书来说，我们只能沿着我们真正看见的、感受到的，在社区里的原生需求和链路去构建。它有自己生态生长的节奏与规律，这个是我们核心的参照系。
社区有它自己的原生性和生长性，你必须沿着它原生出来的方向，才能更好的去满足它原生的需求。什么叫快一点，就是赶快来「嫁接」，嫁接的东西是最快的，但它不一定适合我们，而且也不一定能真正满足原生生态里真实的需求。所以我们并不会特别纠结快与慢的问题。就像你说社区很难赚钱。我觉得构建社区的商业系统确实很有挑战，但是这是让它更原生、更好地融入社区唯一的路径，没有其他的办法。
Q：听懂了，原生的商业系统是第一重要的，快慢是第二重要的。小红书很原生的那种生态，我可能真的不知道，但是你告诉我，我能更快地了解这个「原生」的感觉。
柯南：是那种开放性。 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q：今天特别感谢柯南来到极客公园分享，希望你们的原生系统越走越好。
柯南：谢谢。
翻译：
Dialogue small red book COO Conan: “Kind” out of a native business system, slow and fast
“Today’s Little Red Book has proven that good communities make good businesses.”
On December 17, at the Geek Park Innovation Conference 2024, Conan, COO of Little Red Book, and Zhang Peng, founder & President of Geek Park, had a chat, standing together at the moment, looking at the “commercial value” of Little Red Book, the “growth wonder” of the current Internet stock era, showing the thinking context of Little Red Book about community, business and users in these years.
The theme of this time is “User, system, connection, what is the” business value “of Little Red Book?” In the conversation, Conan answered the outside world’s many curiosity about the little Red book – how does the little Red book see the relationship between community and business now? What kind of soil is the little Red book providing for the business role on the platform, and what kind of business system is it doing? How valuable is Little Red Book search? How is the power of the user impacting business today, and what is the “new relationship” with the platform?
This year marks the 10th anniversary of the establishment of Little Red Book, the community continues to grow, and business naturally grows in it. In recent years, Little Red Book has gathered up the commercial value that naturally sprouted in the community and begun to build a commercial system. On the one hand, the value of “planting grass” named by users began to be quantified, from “metaphysics” to “science”, to give the brand more definite results; On the other hand, the “pulling grass” after “planting grass” naturally grows, and the electricity supplier is more naturally placed in the community – commodity notes, live broadcast with goods… In addition, search, which is widely discussed by the outside world, is also growing rapidly, becoming a door for new users to open the small red book community.
Little Red Book is watching and starting to see and capture these business values. From taking charge of the small Red Book community to taking charge of the small Red book e-commerce and commercial products, Conan said that on top of the user’s understanding of the community, there is a richer and complete perspective supplement – the cognition and understanding of business. How to continue to provide user value while also helping the business role grow.
Little Red Book is also moving forward and starting to build a native business system for Little Red Book. Conan said that more and more business brands are thinking from the perspective of long-term management, to establish connections with users, and what Little Red Book is doing is to build a native business system and build a business system for their long-term management.
A better business system, in turn, enhances the value of individuals in the Small Hong Book community. Being a buyer is truly a new profession; Brand owners themselves to small red book to do content, do business, to become their own brand, product spokesperson; Brand merchants go from being seen and liked to being able to get efficient transformation.
As Conan said, “Community and business are not opposites, nor are they contradictory. The community of XiaoHongshu has business, and it has a very prosperous and dynamic business ecology.” “Follow the needs and links of users, follow the rhythm and law of ecological growth, and build a native business system of XiaoHongshu to help commercial roles create value. This is also the only way for businesses to better integrate into the community.” 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
The following is a transcript of COO Conan talking to Geek Park founder Zhang Peng in Little Red Book, organized by Geek Park.
First, we have to some extent broken the external stereotype of the community
Q: 2023 is the 10th anniversary of the establishment of Little Red Book, how do you celebrate?
Conan: August 2nd is the day when the Little Red Book is registered, so we always call August 2nd the Little Red Book Day. On August 2 every year, employees of Little Red Book can go out to play without going to work with pay. And we will design a variety of activities for the staff, such as this year there are paddle boarding, kayaking, rock climbing and meditation bowls, painting, some moving and some quiet. Employees can choose a variety of activities according to their interests and hobbies. For example, I went to learn a coffee latte this year, and went to fencing.
Since this year is a special 10th anniversary, we held a “Road Life Festival” in Shanghai for more than a week on August 2nd. On the same night, we also organized a concert for our employees, where Seiya shared his insights of the past decade and our mission and vision for the future.
Before that, in July, the core students of the company went to Tonglu together to discuss our mission and vision for the future. In fact, on the fifth anniversary, we had a similar discussion at the same place in Tonglu. The company specifically chose the same B&B, and I even shared the same room.
Q: Very dainty, kind of look at the past five years of their own feeling?
Conan: Yes, the same place, you can feel the big changes five years ago and five years later. I dug up my notes from Tonglu five years ago and found that we spent half a day discussing “Is sharing important or discovery important in Little Red Book?” . 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Zhang Peng: Which one did you think was important?
Conan: Now that I think about it, it’s not that important. Later on the way back, because Tonglu (back to Shanghai) almost three or four hours by minibus, so on the minibus we also discussed the topic of whether the little red book should do e-commerce. Five years ago, in my notes, I was very firm in stating that we would not do e-commerce, at that time from the perspective of the community. But you see, last year I started running the e-commerce business. (Laughter)
Q: This change is quite emotional.
Conan: So now to think back to it is actually quite interesting, quite green feeling.
Q: No regrets?
Conan: No regrets. I think the change of many problems comes from the change of their own cognition and the opening of their vision. But the main thing is that today’s little Red book is very different from what it was five years ago.
Q: The number of users of XiaoHongshu continues to grow, but is it not a headache for the community to make money?
Conan: I started doing communities in 2015, and there have always been two biggest doubts about communities, one is that communities don’t grow up, and the second is that communities are hard to make money. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q: That’s what they say about Geek Park.
Conan: I feel like Geek Park is a community, too.
Q: We are much smaller than you.
Conan: Little is beautiful. The problem of the community not growing up, we have been through the community at this stage of constantly breaking circles and its user scale continues to expand, to some extent to eliminate this problem, because the community can grow up. In the past ten years, everyone is also going through this process to read the little Red book, and the community can serve a larger number of users, and we can integrate more diverse circles. When you enter you feel that it is no longer a big community, it is very many small communities, small circles, but it can be very well integrated by us, organically integrated together. Although many users may not suddenly enter the community to participate in sending notes, interaction, comments, but they can enjoy the value of the small red book community to them, so the community can grow up.
Returning to the matter of whether the community can make money, today’s little Red book we also see that good communities also grow good businesses. And I’ve always felt that community and business are not antithetical or contradictory. We can immediately see that there is a business in the community of Little Red Book, and there is a very prosperous and dynamic business ecology. Last year, when I began to take charge of the community business to shift to e-commerce and commercial products, I found that the community of XiaoHongshu has already had a prosperous business ecology, and a lot of brands, merchants, and even individuals have relied on this ecology to obtain a lot of business dividends and earn money.
Conan believes that community and business are neither antagonistic nor contradictory | Geek Park
On various platforms, the creators of the little Red Book have the strongest ability to monetize. There are 500 fans can receive business orders, there are 1000 fans can open live to do buyers. I believe this is a very attractive platform for people who have good content creation skills, but also have a business sense.
All these verify that, first, there is a business ecology in our community, and this ecology has raised a lot of businesses, individuals, and everyone has gained profits here, and everyone has survived here, but everyone is worried about your business growth.
Second, the business needs that continue to be captured come from the business ecology in the community, and continue to change, upgrade, and break
Q: Business in a community is about solving other people’s problems with something you’re passionate about. When I was editor of a magazine, I was very happy that people liked my articles. But I need to make money to keep the newsroom running, and there have been some challenges in business, I don’t know if you have similar feelings? 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Conan: There are good times and challenges. The good thing is, I personally don’t feel the perspective has shifted. I am based on the native understanding of users and communities, compatible to complement the understanding of business operations. This goes hand in hand with doing community, for example, the first part of our company culture that we still have on the wall is called “Go to the user.”
Our team travels to different cities and different user groups every year. We are really trying to walk into the user’s life state, practice, really see, hear, and perceive. Through hands-on experience, we can understand our users more deeply, which leads to many new discoveries. These findings are sometimes a shock to the face, and sometimes a wake-up call.
Back to business, how to understand the needs of business customers, businesses, entering the business and entering the customer is also a very important way to our business what kind of changes they are facing, what kind of challenges they are facing, what kind of demands they have on us, what can we do? After gradually understanding and gradually seeing these things, for myself, it is also a more complete complement and establishment of the world view of my cognitive community.
I realized that the community of XiaoHongshu is not only a platform for users, there are many different businesses, goods, brands, and individuals attached to the above, whether doing business here, looking for users to interact, providing users with a variety of services, whether in the public domain or the private domain field are part of the community, for me, it is also a process to see the broader community. After having a more global understanding and cognition under this compatibility, it is more to help me think about how to continue to provide user value while also helping these business values and businesses.
But the core challenge remains great. The small Red Book community is still in the growth stage and has not reached maturity, for example, our product containers and frameworks are still iterating, and we have not reached a stable period, as if every year we will find a key product container in urgent need of upgrading, such as (previous) video and live broadcast.
As the community grows, the business ecology it breeds is also constantly changing, because there are many new business opportunities and even some new business practices. In fact, both dimensions are in the process of continuous change and iteration, which is important to us in this process, how can we better build and iterate our commercial products, which commercial needs and commercial values are truly productized, so that more businesses can benefit. This is actually a challenge for us. Because the business needs that we continue to capture come from the business ecology in the community, then we also need to think about how to make these real business needs more naturally integrated in the community. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q: Native?
Conan: It needs to be native but it also needs to be able to carry these commercial values amplified. I think it’s interesting that a lot of times the addition of these business perspectives forces us to look at how our product containers should break through, what industries we should dig, so the process is also a continuous process of change, upgrade, and break. So it’s interesting, it’s also full of challenges, challenges of competence, challenges of cognition.
Q: Finding a problem worth solving and aligning the product with the ability to solve the problem is quite complicated. What problems have Little Red books found in the past few years that should have been addressed earlier? Or did you do something wrong? Because it represents growth.
Conan: Growth often comes from the subversion of common sense cognition. Many people believe that 2020 is an important inflection point for the growth of XiaoHongshu, and users perceive that the content ecology of Xiaohongshu, especially the video content ecology, will become richer after 2020. In fact, in 17 and 18 years, the entire content ecology, including the Internet product form, is upgrading to video.
At that time, we think that we do video as a product function area to do, to provide the release entrance, on the original product framework can provide users can watch video some functions, but maybe I think relatively more in a way that we are still graphic based, video is an additional product function, so we still use a relatively linear optimization way.
At that time, we were still in the UGC graphic ecology to do immersive imagination, until 2020, in fact, this cognition continues to be broken by users, broken by the market around us. You’re constantly being told the value of video is really, really refreshing our perception of the future. In 2020, we think we’re really going to do video.
We pulled together a team with a relatively closed loop of product, algorithm, technology and operations, and did it in an All in video way. Looking back today, it has indeed brought great changes to our video content ecology. And this is also a big upgrade for our community organization change and combat effectiveness. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q: I am more concerned about search now. More and more people are starting to use Little Red Book as a search engine. How do you think Little Red Book search is doing now? What about the future?
Conan: Your question makes me feel a little DEJA VU. What I continue to be told this year is the search value of Little Red Book, because this year I feel that more and more new users come into contact with Little Red Book because of search, and it is search because of its usefulness, its tool attributes, so its universality. In fact, it is like giving a lot of new users, who are not necessarily native to the small red book community, to open a door to the small Red book community.
Today, nearly 70% of our monthly active users will search, and one-third of monthly active users open the small red book first step is to search. I found that the user search scene has become more and more rich, such as the recent cold, a cold cough how to do, such as snow flight delays, including the recent Dandong strawberry when the market these questions have come. This time to participate in the geek park, two days ago came to Beijing and met the Beijing heavy snow, I will search in the small red book Beijing heavy snow by plane or by high-speed rail. As soon as I saw the weekend minus 15 degrees, for me as a southerner, I was scared, I searched minus 15 degrees what to wear.
We found some changes, today’s small red book search coverage has been very, very wide, and the current users and users with small red book search way is not the same. In the past, search terms were short and content was selected by search. But today there are a lot of expressions with problems, many users are using the little red book as a search engine. I also saw in a note that a user said Little Red Book is a bit like how you would feel if you went to ask ChatGPT with a Prompt.
Q: It’s just not an AI, it’s a real person.
Conan: Yes, someone to help you with more complex needs. The needs of today’s users are more and more complex, and it is not a simple answer, not even a highly authoritative answer can be answered. Now if you search for “Geek Park” in XiaoHongshu, the general search results will tell you which year Geek Park was founded, who the founder is, and Zhang Peng’s background. But there may be a real-time sharing of our current chat on the Little Red Book.
Search for “Geek Park” in Little Red Book for live notes at | Little Red Book
Just now we talked about business, and search has also shown us a lot of business space that can do work. Because the user search scene is very wide, the industry behind the connection is also more and more rich, such as can connect more male users of antique cars, running shoes, cultural games, as well as people’s livelihood, such as education, public examination, postgraduate examination. From a global perspective, we find that the search of XiaoHongshu has begun to have independent user value, and may also have independent business value.
Q: Often an answer without a standard answer may be a better answer in life, which may contain more value. If we look at Little Red Book as a new generation of search engines, a “new generation” of search engines, is there anything to look forward to in the future? How will it go?
Conan: It’s left to us to work on search, how to use AI to drive search better is very important, but at the same time we see a lot of commercial possibilities for designing it better.
Just said that user needs are changing, whether it is simple needs or complex needs, and this year users use the small red book scene cover so diverse, behind how to connect more rich industries, and how to dig one industry after another here, whether to provide users with better content, or better service, I think these for us have great imagination space. The beauty of it is that search brings out a lot of business needs, but also brings out a lot of business value. It’s already happening, and it’s a test of how to link up this commercial product. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
When we think about how to commercialize the community, I actually think the process is very simple for us. There are businesses in the Xiaohongshu community, and this business has spawned a commercial ecology, which has a lot of existing needs, so we as a product to provide solutions based on needs, this logic is very simple. The key is that in the process we will discover the business ecology and business opportunities nurtured in the community.
Third, the business system of Little Red Book originates from the original business needs of the community
Q: The business model of XiaoHongbook is not only as a front-end search engine, but people are more curious about the complete business model. How is this system built?
Conan: It’s probably a relatively clear way to share what we did this year.
At the beginning of this year, we focused on the commercial value of “planting grass” in the commercialization side, because when Little Red Book first began to do commercialization in 2019, we found that there was a marketing method in the community ecology at that time, which can be called “new generation” even now, and it was not a brand advertisement with a large amount of exposure. It’s a wave of relatively new brands and merchants who are aware of the need to reach and influence users with good content. And the content needs to be more authentic, and that authenticity comes from people who have actually used it. In this process, various names flew back and forth in the market, but finally the market gave it a name called “planting grass”.
Much of what we hear today about the value of growing grass comes from this new generation of marketing. When the ecology of the community gives birth to new marketing methods, for the small Red book team, what we need to do is to follow this trend and think about how to productize grass, so that merchants and brands can make better use of this product and improve the efficiency of “grass”. Only then did we have the new career and identity of “dandelion platform” and “little red book blogger” that we heard later. In the past, there was no such concept, only the concept of Internet celebrities and the concept of talent. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
The first thing we spent a lot of time on this year is how to make grass better quantified. People used to say that growing grass is “metaphysical”, we will think about how to make it as scientific as possible, better quantified, so that it can be used by more businesses and brands.
At the same time, this year we found that the industry that really began to grow grass has become more and more, not only consumer goods can grow grass, this year’s offline service industry recovery, education, tourism, even housekeeping, and games have also begun to grow grass in the small red book. From “planting grass to the little red book”, to “everything can grow grass”.
Many industries have entered the little Red Book, and what we have to do is how to help more industries improve their grass planting ability. Because different industries, we are planting different things, not only big products, but also services, experiences, and even virtual content and IP. We follow these business needs that are generated natively by the community and productize and scale it so that more merchants and businesses can use it.
Q: It feels like the first thing we think about is marketing, customer acquisition, traffic, these things, but what you want to do is to help everyone get closer to the “business” state?
Conan: Yes, we heard a lot of voices this year about how we can operate in the longer term, connect with consumers, directly hear the voice of consumers, and help them to understand what the so-called crowd assets mean. This means that from large-scale reach, we begin to think about how to more stably establish their own user assets to achieve the goal of better transformation and better precipitation of users.
The word user value, before the Internet company said more. Today, I see that more and more merchants are also influencing and precipitating customers from a long-term perspective. This attitude is really shifting from marketing, sales or traffic to long-term operations.
For us, what we want to do is to help people better operate in the small Red Book for a long time, and to build our own native business system as a goal. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q: If Geek Park wants to build a brand in Little Red Book and sell some things, such as geek culture products, how should I run it?
Conan: I would ask you two questions. First, what is your product positioning? Your target audience, customer price, what do you sell, what is your style?
Q: I can’t catch it.
Conan: That’s not the second question.
Q: We should think this through first before we discuss it with you.
Conan: The geek is still very engineer style, the bottom layer is simple and rational. In fact, recently in the little red book is actually quite popular you can search, ask programmers to wear.
Q: It’s not plaid anymore?
Conan: No plaid shirt, plaid shirt is already the style of ancient times, two years ago there was a time when the picnic was very popular, someone said that the programmer plaid shirt in the world was used as a picnic mat. Now there are some “new generation” programmers in the Little Red Book, and there are a lot of style changes. Recently, there is a style called “Clean Fit” which is very simple, and I think it is also suitable for you geeks. Simple.
Q: I wonder if I can find someone to help me grow grass and buy it for me.
Conan: I think you could be the head of the geek park yourself. In fact, many content creators transform, do their own brand shaping, passing on their own product culture and brand concept, and the master is a good role.
There is a meme in the little red book, saying that when it was called “self-employed”, today it is called “master”.
There are businesses in the small red book business trilogy, the first step is to open an account, interact with users, through the content to “circle” different users, and then feel the community which is your target users. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
The second step is for the manager to publicize himself, introduce his product concept and brand culture, or cooperate with buyers.
The third step, when there is a certain customer group, they stable cognition, you will think about how to stabilize business, this is the second question I just want to ask you – in addition to product positioning, what is your business purpose?
Q: In your previous paragraph, I found that there are many commercial “native” people in the Little Red Book. Is it a new production relationship? How do we understand this?
Conan: Let me share with you some of the phenomena in the Little Red Book.
The first is the emergence of new occupations in Little Red Book’s business system.
For example, when we began to do live e-commerce, there was a group of new buyers, different from the first generation of small red book bloggers, these buyers may need a richer and more professional ability – live also needs to choose products, not only to share their own use experience, so the value they provide may be that on the grass, it can also provide the value of pulling grass. Different stages, we can see different new careers.
Including the manager just mentioned, the manager is also a new kind of self-employed, they are users and individuals in the original community. I think in today’s environment, Little Red Book gives a lot of individuals a very good opportunity to give full play to their individual power. As long as they have expertise in content creation and are willing to make the effort to share. So we say that anyone can be a buyer, you don’t have to be a star. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Second, the small red book business system has also spawned some very segmented industries to meet the segmented user needs, which I think can be called a new industry.
For example, some time ago, little Red Book had a shop that sold felt for customized pets. Users can send a photo or video of their pet to the owner, who will help you customize a very cute felt with your pet’s image on it. The comments below all say there is a queue and orders are months away.
Such a segmented industry was difficult to imagine before, but with the increase of students who keep pets, such a segmented industry has been born. There are so many new industries popping up in the Little Red Book. And new business opportunities, which exist in these segments, are spawned in this system.
And the third is, you mentioned productive relations, or new relations. It’s true that many businesses and brands are rethinking their relationship with their customers. I very much agree with you, now users are not “passive consumers”, buy and go, merchants/brands want to be able to establish a different, more in-depth relationship with users. But what this relationship is, I think it’s constantly being redefined, or it has a richer definition.
For example, in the Little Red Book search terms, you can see a variety of needs. Have you heard of Yan ‘an Apple? Have you heard of Yan ‘an fruit industry Center?
Q: No.
Conan: Almost 4 million tons of apples will be sold in the Yan ‘an fruit industry Center this year. But the problem is that its popularity on the Internet is very low, especially among young people.
So he issued this very simple note, to the users of the small red book to help say how to sell, but also more net sense that we will “listen to persuade”, “listen to persuade” the word recently in the small red book is very hot. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Yan ‘an fruit industry center in the little red book “Listen to advice” | little red book
There are about five or six hundred comments below this note, and many users are helping him do marketing, planning, sales, and how to be younger. Yan ‘an fruit industry center put a lot of suggestions to users, propaganda printed on its packaging box, sold in the small red book, they will also send thank-you letters to users. You will find that it is a process of engaging more users to help you and build brand awareness.
I was more impressed by the box printed on the top of the sentence “we are not Internet celebrity fruit, because we are already very popular when there is no Internet.”
Q: Is it all user-curated?
Conan: Yes, using the plan given by the users of the Little Red Book, it sounds like a very confident Apple company. I feel that new careers, new industries, and the beginning of a new relationship between users and businesses are born out of the community, a relatively native business system.
Fourth, there is no absolute frame of reference for new species, and it is difficult to say whether fast or slow
Q: We just talked about the new generation of self-employed people, managers, new generation of search, and new generation of business systems. When you build something new, you need a process. In the past, Little Red Book was also called a slow company, so I want to ask. Are you offended that you’re a slow company? 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Conan: No offense, because we’re slow.
Q: Is slow a problem? Does slow need to be fast?
Conan: I think sometimes being slow is a problem, like when you have common sense knowledge that the whole world knows, but you lack it. But if it is the new generation, sometimes there is no absolute frame of reference between fast and slow rhythm, 20 years later looking back at the current stage, you say that our rhythm is fast or slow, it is hard to say.
For Little Red Book, we can only build along the native needs and links in the community that we really see and feel. It has its own rhythm and law of ecological growth, which is our core frame of reference.
The community has its own nature and growth, and you must follow its native direction in order to better meet its native needs. What is faster, that is, to “graft” as soon as possible, the grafted thing is the fastest, but it is not necessarily suitable for us, and it may not really meet the real needs of the original ecology. So we don’t really worry about fast versus slow. Like you said it’s hard to make money in the community. I find it challenging to build a business system for the community, but it’s the only way to make it native and better integrated into the community.
Q: I understand. The original business system is the first important, and the speed is the second important. Little red book is very native to that kind of ecology, I may really do not know, but you tell me, I can understand this “native” feeling faster.
Conan: It’s that openness. 数字化转型网（www.szhzxw.cn）
Q: Today special thanks to Conan for coming to Geek Park to share, I hope your native system goes better and better.
Conan: Thank you.
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